IlluviTalks #16 - Metaverse: AR Ready?, Graphics Issues & Earning Tokens Dead? (Vic Laranja, Go Shiny Hunter & OVER)

Will AR glasses be the huge “unlock” metaverse enthusiasts hope for? Does the metaverse need to have AAA cutting edge graphics to be useful or enticing? Is “earning” tokens in the metaverse a dead trend?

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Vic Laranja - https://www.tiktok.com/@vic.laranja
Go Shiny Hunter - https://youtube.com/c/GoShinyHunter
Diego Di Tommaso (OVER) - https://www.overthereality.ai/

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Illuvium is an exploration looter and collectible autobattler game built on the Ethereum Blockchain, releasing on PC and Mac in 2022. Play and earn in a graphically-rich, vividly-realized sci-fi adventure and conquer the wilderness to help your crash-landed colony flourish.

Race across stunning alien landscapes on your quest to uncover the cause of the cataclysm that shattered Illuvium. Hunt and capture Illuvials, powerful creatures who have ruled the land unchallenged until your arrival. Train and fuse your Illuvials into powerful evolutions. Build your ultimate Illuvial team to take into battles and tournaments in PvE and PvP Arenas. Use your creativity to build unique synergies to outsmart your opponents and progress to the top as become the most legendary Ranger on this planet.

Illuvium’s collectible NFT games feature crypto token assets with functionality and a gaming use case, interoperable across the Illuvium universe and the larger DeFi metaverse. The decentralized NFT collection offers players a user-maintained custody never before possible in mainstream gaming.

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Transcript

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let's go let's go let's go we've got another fantastic episode of louvatox let's do it welcome to oluva talks where we're leading the conversation about the future of gaming where you're going to learn at least two new technology insights guaranteed in every single episode in this episode let's talk about it we are going to talk about the metaverse obviously but is augmented reality ready are there Graphics quality issues happening right now yes is token earning dead we're going to talk about that and I just want to remind everyone nothing we talk about on the show is financial advice but if you're watching you're obviously a genius and you know you're responsible for doing your own research and seeking independent advice of course and you don't want to just hear me talking about all of this you want to listen to the smartest people on the internet and I've got the stackiest panel ever of super Geniuses starting with Vic who's a crypto in finance Tick Tock influencer I want to congratulate you man let's bring you in here congratulations on hitting 250 000 followers on Tech talk you are grinding hard over there and your content's great welcome to the show thank you Andrew I really appreciate that it's been a a steady grind for the last year but we hit 250 000 I'm actually giving away a PS5 because of it so that happens tomorrow man look at you all influencer giveaways and everything congratulations man I'm super happy for you I've coached a lot of people that have tried to achieve the success you have on Tick Tock good for you great content with high retention wins and your content gets straight to the point I love it we've got other super Geniuses coming on the show including shiny you guys may have seen the YouTube channel out there the brand go shiny Hunter who's an nft gaming YouTuber providing uh kind of news updates hot nft projects I was chugging some top five nft games you can play now here he is Chinese on the show what's up buddy hey man thanks for having me awesome yeah of course and uh a great Channel highly recommend subscribing to both of these guys and their content and following and we've also got uh the co-founder of a major project in augmented reality on the show today hopefully his internet holds up he's traveling in Miami for business and what have you it's the first augmented reality open metaverse it's called over and it's the geo-localized experience where basically they're bringing together like you guys know augmented reality physical and digital worlds into one they've got a mobile app I was checking out really cool project Diego in the house is Miami internet holding up bro yes let's try that again uh super excited to be uh at the show and yeah let's try to do that I hope the connection points I hope it holds too he's the CEO and co-founder of over and we really appreciate all of you guys making the time we've got so much to cover I know augmented reality is top of mind uh given our panel today so the question I want to ask all of you I'm just going to tee this up for the audience and then we're going to kick it over to Diego is AR ready so what do I mean by that uh can AR Go mainstream if users are forced to look at it through let's say tiny rectangles so there's upcoming Technologies such as Apple glass where there's speculation about this coming out maybe in 2023 potentially five hundred dollars integrating into their VR AR offering also Mark Zuckerberg's augmented reality play in tandem with uh Ray-Ban cool looking glasses promises to uh maybe be useful in the future we have yet to see it and there's also of course the failed project of Google Glass in the past and there's other augmented reality players that are going the glass route but today we have phones to experience augmented reality and that is what over has been focusing on and so the question I want to kick over to you Diego is can AR Go mainstream if users are forced to view it through a small rectangle but yeah I I believe that not for all the use cases of course and in fact if we think about AR I mean the probably the biggest success up to date was Pokemon go and Pokeball was a game it is a game basically and we didn't see any uh app that really uh did the huge success of their after that even Niantic that built that up was not able to replicate that success uh with our with the later latest trials so I would say that this is uh for two main reasons so one uh of course is what you mentioned so the means that we use the speed in AR so mobile phones uh they are great because everybody has a smartphone music pocket right now uh they are not of course so great because the experience of AR is kind of limited in some way uh on the other side this is knocked up the only barrier and I guess that this is uh there is another value that is totally underestimated localization accuracy so when you have a game like Pokemon go that was successful you actually use GPS to locate your space and GPS is quite good for a game like Pokemon go where you don't need to different size you don't care whether the disaster does you just want to collect those to gain something but if you really want when you say you don't need to worry about being precise you mean it can relatively understand maybe within 10 20 30 feet of where you're at it doesn't really matter if you're you exactly where Pokemon Go thinks you are you're just trying to catch a Bulbasaur is that what you mean by location accuracy yeah exactly I mean uh exactly so you don't really care to add the physical world to to the documented in a specific way I mean you just care about having this asset you interact with and you want to collect it but if they are I don't know other side of the world or others outside of the building on the other side of the street you don't really care but if you won't like to create this vision of this augmented reality metaverse you need to have this Precision but imagine you want to put an avatar in front of the door you want to mount a shop window this augmentation needs to be exactly there to have a meaning otherwise it lose all the names that it has and and you know and we are talking about when we were cutting to GPS I even referring throughout the GPS because indoor GPS does not work at all I mean really the system doesn't know it is like 30 meters server so without solving this problem basically all the applications that we we dream about are not possible and because of that I mean the big corporations working in AR automatically try to solve these problems Niantic is doing that with uh I mean with their light shape and so on Microsoft is doing that with their services Google is doing that if you are in New York you try to use Google Maps uh it will not work because that is the tall buildings and the and the signal of GPS will not be accurate they will ask you to point to the building so they would switch to an optical system to locate your space so so what you mean by that is because GPS isn't quite as accurate as it needs to be for augmented reality experiences to be as high quality as we want them to be we need other sensors to help make those experiences more accurate such as camera sensors to pull the visual information in your space or even lidar to pull the 3D data in your space in order to make augment re-augmented reality actually accurate and maybe take it to the next level is that what you're saying no exactly in fact I mean my periodic at the end of the day it's about mixing the physical and the real problem so if you cannot trick your brain with a convincing experience uh you would say yeah cool uh not so fun anymore I mean maybe it's nice to see it for one or two minutes but then I mean the engagement falls down because I mean your brain is very picky when it's about to uh reality so maybe you can do some occlusive environment that is not so perfect and still get it through it but if you want to have an augmented reality student you want to mix it we want that this asset emerges your reality uh our senses our brain is very tricky so uh the first thing I mean things uh the system need to be aware of the environment around you and I mean for just the stupid thing things can that doesn't have to go behind walls or I don't know uh I have no collusion or stuff like that and and so that's a problem and and of course some some may argue that this is just for a geologicalizer materiality you can have a materiality experiences that doesn't care about the location uh but when you think about that all the things that we dream about AR is like a space aware of computing so the fact that the the objects that we used augment the world are actually cohere in some way with this world and so that I think is the second big barrier and probably in my opinion probably advice because they were a business system to solve this problem but probably is even the first uh problem of failure got it that makes sense so let me kick this over too so thank you for sharing all of that it's really interesting to hear about all the problems or challenges there are with properly implementing AR and how you have to have different sensor systems and back-end systems to solve those problems so let me kick this over to shiny you're an AR junkie do you think that uh AR is going to go let's say mainstream with us looking through rectangles and trying to point the small rectangle at the world or or will things like apple glass and Holo lens and these sort of Technologies take the experience that teams like over is building and then take it mainstream do we need augmented reality to be just sitting on our heads where we don't have to take these extra actions to see a small piece of it it's literally our entire field of view is that the unlock that is required to make augmented augmented reality as ubiquitous as these rectangles what are your thoughts it went mainstream with Pokemon go but but steadily we saw a decline we saw new games coming out either using augmented reality so The Walking Dead did a game called our world there was Jurassic world alive and what you steadily saw in those games was a decline in user base and some of those games even Wizards unite for Harry Potter um that they they ended the game completely because it wasn't generating enough profit it wasn't worthwhile for them to have it so clearly we've evolved to a point where the standard has changed it was mainstream but now we want more we want a better closer to reality augmented reality um with our experience because I think that's gonna you're right with this having a screen holding up to certain things it's just not as accessible and it's not as realistic you want it to not you want it to trick your brain into thinking this is genuinely right in front of me so you get a real and just engages that kind of like fantasy experience of whatever you're you're playing or using well let me push back on that because everybody says Pokemon go mainstreamed augmented reality but my experience with everybody I know played Pokemon go and one of my best friends is like an like one of the faces of Pokemon go they flew him out to Japan to do all the commercials I know all the biggest like Pokemon go YouTubers my kids I play Pokemon go with them every day and everybody says that's augmented reality that mainstreamed it did it because most users I've seen literally every user I've ever seen just wants to turn the augmented reality off because it makes this experience lower quality it's literally more difficult to see the freaking Pokemon when it's sitting on top of God only knows what's in your background with your camera as opposed to the uh you know let's say cartoony background like the forest or whatever behind the Pokemon you're able to see the content more clearly and see it within context so the reason why I bring that up is why augmented reality why not virtual or mixed don't people want to escape wouldn't you rather go into a Pokemon Fantasy Land than have your freaking Pokemon sitting there next to you in the dirty Target parking lot next to you come on I'm gonna kick this over to Vic what are your thoughts on that I mean does augmented reality take some of the appeal of the Escape away in the sense of Gaming I would say that it's nice to have different options for users so I think that Pokemon go was really ambitious and uh like Diego is saying about GPS it was really the first time that I ever saw a game allowing me to roam freely in my city and play it that way rather than sitting stationary at a desktop or even a mobile device so I think that the the AR component in integrating the GPS was really powerful however what you're saying about the visual tracking with the Pokemon and integrating with like your living room I do think it it looks kind of rough I agree with you there but I see the future of AR really working outside of gaming and in engineering and different industry where we can you know design the model of a car in an empty room just using 3D modeling software rather than clay for example that to me is the real future of AR outside of just gaming utility so yeah so I mean Zuckerberg has talked about that quite a bit with Facebook meta uh and having those 3D collaboration spaces I have my Oculus Rift or Oculus Pro were sitting over there and I guess I could collaborate with other 3D designers if I could if I knew them and if I was one so I can see those applications also training applications right trying to train people on things like safety and what have you I've seen some good applications for that that makes sense guys we have a lot more to talk about but really quick I want everybody to know this show is available on every podcast platform so if you want to catch this show the edited version later where everybody's ums and Oz and everything's super clean go listen on literally every platform eluvium.buzzsprout.com you can then go select app Apple podcast Spotify whatever you want to listen to your podcast on it's your call go enjoy the show there be sure to subscribe to hear more interesting things from Super Geniuses like our panel today so let's move on to our next topic which I think is really critically important which is metaverse Graphics quality I mean come on everybody has seen and let's go and pull it up I know we have we don't have to relitigate everybody's seen the Zuck with his zuckie look he posted on social media and then he did the upgraded look right everybody laughed and they're like he spent 10 he spent 10 billion dollars on this said every normal person that doesn't follow this space so let's say toward the lower end of the graphic Spectrum you've got things like Horizon worlds uh this is somebody I've talked to in a Consulting capacity they're called vertway events it's toward the lower end of the Spectrum in terms of Graphics quality but it's very practical uh you can get a thousand people in the same space for example in this solution but uh the graphics quality is low in exchange for the utility of having a thousand people in the same space then somewhere in the middle of the graphics quality Spectrum will have maybe projects like TCG world that don't look great they just look okay but they sure as heck look better than this so they're somewhere in the middle and then towards the top of the graphic Spectrum let's call it our projects like everdome which are shooting you in the freaking face with lasers in every modern Graphics uh tool and experience that is available and hoping to entice users into the metaverse through something that's awe-inspiring and uh is beautiful but the point of showing these examples is the lower the lower Graphics quality stuff like virtue events you can get a thousand people in there it's a scalable and you can use it on your phone the higher quality stuff like everdome you probably need like a 30 series or 40 series graphics card right to experience this which is going to limit your user base to less than one percent of humans so the question that I want to bring up to the panel right now and we'll kick this over to shiny first is Will users accept low quality Graphics in the metaverse in exchange for scale or do they need those beautiful lasers going pew pew in their eyeballs what are your thoughts on that I think you've got a real kind of like thing to weigh up just personally playing VR games at the moment my biggest problem is in graphics I I accept it as it is but I don't think it's uh accessible enough in terms of the headset's too big it's too chunky I end up playing for an hour and my head is my neck is killing me and I don't want to play more oh well I want to play more but I know that I can't because if I do I'll just end up with RSI in the neck and won't be able to move my head for the next couple of days so I think the quality isn't as big an issue but if you're setting up the future of the metaverse if you're going into like where we want to go to which is everybody wants to get to Ready Player one right that that type of standard where it's ultra realistic but that that what you're talking about do people need to integrate things like the ability to you know you touch something and you perceive it generally on your fingers you get hit by something and you've hit you actually feel it hopefully you don't feel a pew pew in your eyebrow in your eye but like you want that Ultra realism so I think it's a trade-off I would personally trade off scalability and the quality in terms of feeling engaged with it and my hand movements being exactly what's going on rather than having those ultra realistic Graphics but that's just my opinion on that for sure got it so so you're you kind of fall into the gameplay first category of thinking where if it's fun if it's responsive that's let's say the majority of the value and it looking like an everdome or or even an alluvium right isn't as important to you as the gameplay that's fair um let me ask Diego this question then the same question what are your thoughts on Graphics quality you guys are working on augmented reality so I guess you guys literally get to pull from the graphics of reality and overlay something on top of it but what are your thoughts do we need those beautiful Graphics to hook the mainstream user are people going to continue to laugh at us like they laughed at Zuckerberg if we don't have those good ground effects what yeah so just a quick comment on on the exactly so through I mean that I mean so was uh totally I mean disappointing but the point is that it's strange because uh we are looking at all the papers that are coming out in the space of face cloning and so on and actually make that uh lately came out with some very important research in the direction so I guess that this is what we see now but in the future I guess that we will they will also strive to photoralism and they will do that because they have the technology to do this uh closing this argument I will uh kind of go a little bit against uh What uh is our vision also because we are striving through photoralism because because of what I mentioned before so our eyes are very hard to be tricked so if you want to do augmented reality that it's convincing you need to have high quality uh but looking I mean at the success of other games out there uh like I don't know uh thinking about Roblox uh the graphic quality of robots is audible but I mean they have millions and millions and millions of users so I guess that is space for different flavors different kind of metaverses and also if we move for example uh in the decentralized side so in web free space of metaverse is like we took the central round or we take for example sandbox uh they definitely don't don't try to have a good quality and yes the numbers of those metabosses are very very small compared to the web to metaverse is that is just to simplify the fact that uh probably uh there will be space for a different kind of graphical modes and I'm not so sure that we really need to have an imperialistic makeovers to have method option maybe a more simplistic Metals will be uh the first one that will be adopted and and this is something something very counterintuitive but seeing I mean the engagement that some platforms that doesn't really push on Graphics have I mean to me at least 3 should be a good lesson to think about what could be the future got it yeah so I mean Roblox is successful uh because of the functionality of their platform because of the creativity uh but the graph the Fidelity of the graphics and Roblox is better than Horizon worlds it's better than vertway events You could argue it's maybe even better than TCG world uh because it's stylized and so if you can properly nail the stylized look then uh you can have a successful intellectual property same thing with Minecraft the style carried it uh so let me let me kick this last question on this topic over to uh Vic will mainstream media and normies just continue to laugh at all of this until they see something mind-blowing that they can just put on on a pair of glasses and go whoa I'm in Avatar right now like is it going to continue to be a laughing stock until that moment and the reason why I bring that up is that's 15 years out right so are we that far from this being a thing what are your thoughts I don't know if for 15 years out let me just ask a question about your question are you specifically talking about an AR VR metaverse or would we Factor something into just like a a regular monitor display type of metaverse like to Central land for example I'm I'm referring to an AR VR metaverse I think that's actually what 90 of real people out there that aren't following this closely think metaverse means so they don't think metaverse is in a rectangle they think metaverse is on glasses on a headset it's a 3D immersive space maybe it's Holograms in your room they don't know but it's something that goes beyond the rectangle absolutely that's that's what people I think the average person thinks about metaverse they've seen the movie Ready Player one they're ready for that that's what I mean by that uh so so what are your thoughts on um do we need something like that to get the average person in here so Zuckerberg gets a lot of of slack right now like um he's he's really become a Target because of these big Investments that he's made into the technology but if you listen to what he says about the technology and what people want from it I fully agree with him and that specifically is a feeling of connection and a feeling that the person is right in front of you if you're trying to connect with them and that is what will make a metamorph a metaverse is that we're connecting with people and it feels like an interaction and it feels like a different real life more than anything it just feels like a new life that you're living and with that you need relationships you need other people and it needs to feel realistic so when I play Horizon Worlds the one thing that I really was mind blown about it even though the graphics look awful it looks like you're running around with you know those Wii characters that you have even though all of that just the fact that you're right in front of someone and their hands are moving and their mouth is moving and their eyes are blinking and their heads moving how how they would in real life in in those same in those same ways that they're talking it it pulls you out of your actual reality and sucks you into that reality and if they can lean more in that direction where we're taking human characteristics that are actually happening from the user on the other end and plugging them in the game I think that's the most important thing above Graphics obviously Graphics have a role to play on the comfortability of the game like if your frame rate like I saw one of the comments pop up if your frame rate isn't high enough it's gonna feel like a game or if the the dimensions of the display you're using in your headset are not high enough you're gonna see the pixels it's gonna give you a bit of motion sickness or a bit of a headache or just eye strain if we can remove the eye strain part of it and the the motion sickness I think that human characteristics far are are far more important than actual uh you know polygons in your 3D models that makes sense well let me let me bring up this idea then so when when video games uh be as they've become popular from early video games of little 2D pongy things all the way to uh 2D games like Mario and Platformers leading up into the early 3D games like Mario 64. then let's fast forward to Super High Fidelity games like the Triple A's that are coming out now the biggest hook for people to get into games along the way and don't get me wrong there were Roblox and there were Minecrafts and things along the way that were lower quality Among Us is things like that but 95 of the hook was at those new games and that next generation of games that's coming out that you can buy looks way better than the previous generation and it looks better than anything you've ever seen before so I'm sorry to harp on this topic but when we're talking about people are going to join the metaverse and are going to accept Graphics quality levels that are 25 years ago or 20 years ago that seems counter-intuitive even if the I and I've experienced the eye tracking you're talking about in the hand movements and it is remarkable but are people really gonna be able to accept 25 years ago Graphics even if that functionality is there I have a hard time believing that so at the TV industry look at the film industry look at the gaming industry look at every entertainment industry the higher quality Next Generation technology wins animated films is another example people don't hand draw anything anymore because 3D looks better people don't want to go back in time to the old version of animated films see what I mean so I'm having a hard time thinking of any examples of technology moving forward in entertainment where it looking a lot better isn't the hook that brought almost everybody in I mean correct me if I'm wrong here guys I have one I have one for you so um after the movie Avatar came out there was a massive shift towards super high budget and just over-the-top visual effect movies the problem with these movies is that the stories were all the exact same and really no one a hero's tale or a hero's tale and and it was corny and the movies didn't perform but they all looked phenomenal they all had these crazy Graphics but they didn't click people didn't like them and it was the graphics and the flashiness that Drew people in but in the end all those movies are forgotten about and then over time what we saw is something like that new the Batman with um the guy from Twilight I forget Robert Pattinson where visually like there wasn't that much going on or another example is Dunkirk where there was Zero visual effects and that was all shot through the the lens of of a film camera and it was heavily influenced by the story and it did remarkably well so that is one example of okay look at us we have flashy Graphics we're plugging hundreds of millions of dollars into it and it flops because the human connection wasn't there people at the end of the day they want to connect and they want to feel like a emotion and and that's what we really crave and they might be pulling people in with new games with these crazy Graphics but how many of these games actually are Timeless how many of these games actually last the ones that actually last have a strong community base community and connection and human interaction is the driver for success in all entertainment in my opinion I like that opinion let me push back then on you so uh and I want I want to know if shiny and uh Diego have an opinion on this matter and then we'll move on to our next topic so I understand that Avatar came out and that Avatar had a series of 3D IMAX films that came after it that were not successful however the trend didn't stop there of high budget films completely dominating the film industry uh look at the Avengers series and all the Marvel movies and Star Wars movies and just look at all basically all of the top grossing films and basically every category they are the highest budget films with the highest graphical fidelity so yes I understand Avatar 3D IMAX the umpteenth level didn't quite make it but still the biggest budgets with the biggest Graphics still took the vast majority of the pie in the film industry so I think the concept still stands even though that one that one version of high fit LED Graphics didn't take off look at the box office numbers they don't lie there were some examples of some lower budget films that broke through but still 80 percent of the big movies that made all the money were the ones that spent the most dollars to create them anyway shiny Diego do you have any opinions on this topic otherwise we'll move on to our next one yeah I think it's it's the combination of because what are you getting up with the emotional movies are going to be the ones that you remember the ones that you can connect with the ones with the good quality storyline but do you favor an emotional connection with the film and higher quality Graphics over something that's less I think a combination of those both uh are the best like you say top 10 results are gross from just looking through them just now and yeah it's it's Avatar Avengers Star Wars Titanics in there but I think that was pretty expensive none of those are indie films but they had to your point though obviously they had great stories and a story is the best format to connect with a human right that's why we literally tell everything in the form of a Story video games marketing branding everything's in the form of a story because that's how our brains work good point okay Diego any final thoughts on this otherwise we gotta move on to the next one buddy yeah we can move on we can move on from next one's fine we'll move on Diego has given us permission next topic here this one's fun um so is token earning dead so uh I don't want to rehash everything with axi infinity and all the Gen 1 nft games but the reason why I wanted to bring this up is As we move forward into the metaverse and especially augmented reality projects or one or projects that bring people out into the real world we've got the step and earn I just watched a video they were talking about burn and earn you're working out and earning uh obviously you can go out and go catch monsters in various AR games out there and you're earning man sounds like we're earning lots of tokens in all of these games but as we've learned from gen 1 uh crypto games um games that provide tokens as a reward uh their tokens don't necessarily retain value over time just like printing money in the central banks uh and every civilization in the history of humanity right so I wanted to kick this over to Vic first is token or learning and games dead or is there a place for it longer term what are your thoughts on that I think where a lot of these projects went wrong is they are leading with the foot forward that you can earn tokens and nfts in our game and then exchange them for stuff outside of our game which to me is kind of besides the point of earning an in-game token like if we can bring it back all the way to for instance World of Warcraft when you've earned in-game gold you went and spent it in game now the difference is that obviously that's not on a blockchain that's just they stored it under your profile in the in the game and we're trying to get on blockchain technology so we think that everything should be interoperable with the rest of the world but right when you really make that exchange happen then you have exchange rates and then your token can either go up in value or lower in value and it gets really complicated so I hit pause really quick I just wanted to go back to the WOW gold example yeah yeah you're right you can only use WOW gold in the game I just Googled WOW gold but the top seven advertisements are people trying to take the WOW gold outside of the game and sell it to you for Fiat yeah so this proof demand this proved demand for people earning let's call it tokens in video games if you will it's not on the blockchain but people wanting to sell it for Fiat so what does that does that prove is that like a use case that proves people want this well the the thing where I was going with it is that all that matters is how determined your users are to play your game users I see are the most important thing so if your user puts value on it like which you've seen right there with WOW gold you're there's people actually running Google ads so they're actually investing their money to get your attention to sell you the gold that they've went and earned and farmed or traded for or what have you right this one says it's got 10 years of experience and Live support like these are legit I guess I'm calling legit but these are businesses that have been around for a while yeah I that that whole premise has been around for a while wow is probably what 15 years old at least yeah uh so I mean it's all about the user base if the user base falls off then the whole ecosystem the whole game is going to fall off just like a video game without any blockchain interoperability or any blockchain utility it's a better word for it so users are everything that's my opinion on it got it let me kick this over to Diego so you guys are trying to get people out into the real world use augmented reality experiences so as you're as you're as you co-founded over and you were talking through what rewards do we want to provide users is throwing tokens at them the right move how would you guys think tackling that topic and what's your opinion on the token earning reward as something needed to bring users in and to retain users in the metaverse yeah so in the first use case that we built actually an over was the Pokemon Ghost type question so we send people around the world to collect our tokens and lately we created this system as a software as a service so other companies can actually use it and we did it with many NFD projects I wanted to gamify their assets so it's definitely working I mean people love to do an activity and to gain something out of that the point on that is where is the uh I mean the barrier between people that just do it for Learning and people that also do it because they enjoy that so the problem especially in the crypto world uh is that uh if you push the match on this kind of model uh probably you will onboard a lot a lot a lot of people that adjusted there for getting a quick buck and then leave the platform they don't care about that so I think that is a valuable way to make some noise and engage people but cannot be uh your main value proposition and of course that's the problem that you mentioned at the beginning so these models very often are not sustainable because I mean it's not a circle economy so people Farm the tokens set into the market the price of the tokens will go to zero I will say that I mean there is people that with this unsustainable model they were able to create so much Buzz around them they're basically they reach a status out there so let's let's talk for example about Stefan I mean the model of Stefan is not necessarily sustainable but the noise when there was they were able to generate out of that basically positioned themselves so high that they're probably not going to disappear for many years I don't want to give any judgment on that but I just want to say that we should not underestimate also uh the the possibility that this kind of unsustainable business models sometimes I had to propel projects and so on to a level that they will not achieve with a sustainable Digital model but yeah I think that I mean projects that things about think in the long term they could use this system but they could they should use it with a grain of salt because it's very easy to go on the wrong side of this business model got it yeah I mean I've got step in here and I'm just wondering you know obviously there's a million fitness apps out there and I'd love to know um shiny what you think about that there's a million fitness apps out there and the question is would people have joined the step-in experience or even the burn and earn and whatever experiences if there wasn't the token earning uh hook like was the step in experience and is the stepping experience or like or similar experiences in web 3 compelling enough on their own is the gameplay good enough if you will if there's the experience good enough to carry it or does it have to have that earning component to get people uh to continue to use uh this type of let's call it augmented reality kind of metaverse adjacent type experience shiny yeah I think if you get into any project any way to play an end step and burning in like you say walk to Ernie you've got you're not gonna earn money you can't have that mindset because the if if you are playing a game you need to be able to play it for what it is and enjoy that aspect of it not play it to earn it for it for it to be sustainable for yourself because I mean token earning is not going to die it will never die as long as you create you know utility upgrades updates to the projects that you create because it works in all all of the games that we have you know and I play an Elden ring at the moment that has runes you know the runes aren't going to be that those tokens aren't going to die out I'm going to keep wanting to try and kill people to get more and then because it has utility in the game and I will continue to want it would I go and spend a hundred dollars to buy millions of runes it might spoil the gameplay a little bit but depending on what you're playing if you might need it for a certain weapon or certain customizations if you're playing in a game that has more a stronger social aspect to it so I think if if you look at how many people probably played step in and how many played it because they wanted to get fit versus they wanted to earn about a huge portion of people were attracted to that for its earning potential because during a during whenever when somebody's fresh things go up because it propels itself in oh people see that they've earned something oh okay well I'm gonna get them hop on board with that loads of people do at the same time and then the earning potential goes up so you get more advertisements saying well we've earned five dollars a day up to fifty dollars a day with crypto blades when that first came out I was earning a hundred dollars a day and you know isn't that kind of Ponzi though money the money only comes in absolutely possible like if people put money on the top it filters down the funnel to the user and then it gets distributed to the users and then more money has to come into the top and that's basically the earning potential of any game it cannot favor every everybody because if you all put in a hundred dollars and then then in terms of to earn one of those people who bought 100 has to not earn has to lose money for you to be able to earn it back when you sell the token whatever you've exchanged it for so yeah in terms of earning potential of earning real money no and yes I do think that element is gonna be less of a factor within games because we've seen it's not sustainable and that fact means that people have seen that well it is a bit ponzi-ish and that it has that effect of you know the people who got in first get the most money um so yeah I do think but the the earning potential within games people wanting tokens that's not gonna die as long as you provide a game that has huge utility and makes you want to to spend and earn cosmetics and things in the game that help enhance your experience I learned something new today I never connected the dots on World of Warcraft gold showing us what truly matters with a token earning model and that's if you have tens of millions of users who love an experience and they want the currency within that game they will want to earn those tokens or currency just only because the experience is compelling enough first so that has kind of changed my mind on uh the viability of a let's call it play to earn type of model maybe working in the future so now the whole industry I'm gonna kick it over to you Vic I'm gonna take it over you Wick I promise I'm teeing this up for you bro I got something for you you got something for me perfect so with eluvian we've had lots of internal conversations about how do we talk about earning versus owning started out play to earn then it turned play and earn now it's play and own your assets is kind of where we're at with it right now so I wanted to kick that over to you Vic is owning Assets in the metaverse the better option let's say versus earning tokens and I guess when we're talking about owning assets we're basically saying owning nfts versus earning tokens what are your thoughts on these sort of two different diverging paths that are happening in the web 3 gaming industry right now so really we boil it down to the metaverse right eluvium is uh attempting to build a type of a metaverse environment a metaverse game other projects are doing the same thing and when we consider at like first principles what a metaverse is it's just a second reality like I mentioned earlier it's just second reality so in in base reality in normal reality what do we do for tokens and what tokens do we value right if if you work a job and you get paid in US Dollars that makes sense because you're giving up something that is valuable to you to someone else that's valuable to them and then you're getting something valuable in return but if you got paid in like the the Mexican peso or something you'd obviously not value the peso as much the world doesn't and you swap it over into US dollars so I think the World of Warcraft example really shows us because it's not built on a blockchain type game and it wasn't marketed like oh you know play to earn gold in World of Warcraft and then you can sell it using Google ads like that was never a thing they marketed it was just a solution that other people created just from trial and error and seeing an opportunity in the market we just really got to bring it back to what do people do in real life and how can we replicate that in a secondary reality and that's really what the metaverse is and I think the problem is that we're trying to create all these different elements that we think needs to be there like oh we'll make our own currency that really no one is going to care about uh and we'll make our own this and that and we'll we'll have all these different components that people don't really value but you really just got to bring it back to the comparison of real life like it metaphorically would that thing work in real life if not it probably is not valuable to the user that's how I see it that's a good point let me bring up this example and this will be kind of a closing topic here and I want you guys to share your last thoughts we saw a play and own assets model with Diablo 3's real world auction house uh so for those of you that are not familiar do when Diablo 3 came out they had a model where you could basically play the game get your assets in the game just like we're talking about here on the blockchain but this was over 10 years ago and then you could sell them on a Marketplace for money and users well the article the title here is kind of funny why Diablo's auction house went straight to hell but users hated it they did not want this and so they had to shut down the real money auction house because users did not want to play and own they thought that this was predatory and that this was hurting them by owning these assets and being able to extract money from an experience like a video game so in the case of WOW gold we saw that people wanted that and they subverted the system to do the token earning on the side with Diablo's real money auction house which had tens of millions of users users hated it and they said we don't want to own these things and we don't want to freely be able to exchange them get that out of my face so does that example show us that play to own we all think it's good but does the average gamer actually think play to own or play and own is good that Auction House Fiasco was the biggest headline in entertainment and one of the biggest blunders of all time in the gaming industry floor is open for you guys to comment on that we can't leave that example off the table what do you guys think definitely I think that is there is a huge portion of mainstream Gamers that do not like nfts that hate them that hate the work very word of it and that's because they do feel it takes away from the just pure gaming experience of it adding money to it it can feel like it spoils it and I think also when you have marketplaces that sell these rare items these rare weapons it does become quite annoying in the sense of well I earned that weapon that for a lot of money they've earned that weapon for a lot of you know hours that I put into it like earning the gala horn in Destiny when I first got that it was like one of the best things I've ever earned because a random drop and I'd grinded so many raids to get it and then for somebody to come along and buy that off a Marketplace and have it it kind of taints it attains that kind of experience it cheapens the achievement yeah yeah absolutely I think that's that's one thing one area where I think there'll be lots of different reasons why people don't like nfts in the mainstream area but I think that's that's one of them uh I think you are going to have a mixed opinion on this because it is such a it's a tricky subject for people to get around and and accept I think I I agree with that exam that was a really good really good example um the one thing that I would say is imagine you know you put so many hours to get that item in Destiny you said right and um you know imagine you just logged in and all of your items were gone one day and it's because they had some server malfunction and nft solves that because an nft at its core is just an indestructible receipt that's all it really is it's just an indestructible receipt that you own something so ownership is exactly so Innovation any servers get completely wiped they have some server malfunction they get hacked there's an error whatever what have you then you lose these items you work so hard for won't The Gamers then be like wow I wish it was an nft I wish it was ingrained in a blockchain distributed throughout multiple servers multiple computers so that never would happen I wish it was an nft might be words that won't come out of the mainstream Gamer's mouth for a while uh but it was the first reaction would be where are my weapons I want them back now fix it it would be fine and and there would be some you know call for Bungie to to send out every single item that you lost but how do if they'd have records of that how do they know that people are saying lion a gallaghorn so can you send that back to my account I think the first bit it would be such a big blame on the company and Developers for having the problem uh that would bypass that first sort of of yeah if they if they say that yeah that I wish they were nfts but it's it's true they're absolutely really important point that that it gives you that ownership and protection against that happening which would be painful as hell wouldn't it if you've worked really hard for an item and it's just exactly yeah that makes sense with the NFP you don't necessarily have to be able to buy it right you don't even need an nft Marketplace as in like oh we're gonna buy this nft you could just use the blockchain and use the nft system as a as a means of of proving ownership of the in-game item attached to an account or a wallet yeah Diego closing thoughts from you and where can people discover more about over that you co-founded yeah so the government is a specific um article I mean I I don't know specifically about the the what type of bats what I can say in general of course the fact that you add this economic value Asset that can actually be there out in the market so can be valued from the open market could actually have a great impact on the game mechanics because uh basically there could be some items that maybe unlock things uh that could become super expensive and basically break uh I mean the quality of the participants in the game so I do understand that I mean pure Gamers can be scared about this on the other side uh of course as it was mentioned before the fact that you can own an asset that is not locked inside the platform and maybe you can monetize outside I don't see really the downside of that if we just Analyze This purely the problem of course is that when this item really changed the game your mechanic itself so I I do understand I mean that the pure gamer could be scared about and if these I know of course now we are in the Beer Market so in the near Market everybody hates mfds and that's kind of normal like with tokens yeah yeah they like the stuff that went down in price that's right that makes sense if people are looking to get involved with over and they just want to dip their toe in and kind of check you guys out what what do they need to do well I think that the best thing to do is just downloading the app and custom experience uh trying their experiences in the app you can see what their experiences have been uploaded around you there is 17 000 physical locations that are being edited by uh creators on over so maybe you can stumble uh to some interesting augmented reality experience and then of course if you like the system if you're a Creator and another good thing that you can do you can try to publish stuff we have very easy Builders so that is just drag and drop the 3D asset on FPS that we owned in the web interface and they will be published in AR or if you can code in unity you even have a Unity SDK so you can even create games inside this platform really cool platform I've really enjoyed testing it thank you for joining us today in vic final thoughts from you and where could people find you on the interwebs

sorry I was I was muted um my my main channel is Tick Tock vic.laranja l-a-r-a-n-j-a we got it up on the screen right now watch out for fake versions of me I mean there's hundreds you'll encounter them I'm sure once you follow me the only you had a digital identity that could verify you on the blockchain and prevent this from happening I know I know if only these social media platforms would take impersonation more seriously that's another thing happy that elon's focused on that at Twitter but that's where that's where to find me I make videos multiple times multiple times per week also on YouTube and Instagram and Twitter so just reach out and uh yeah thanks for having me so much Andrew appreciate it yeah of course absolutely shiny I know where to find you where can the people find you and what are your closing thoughts yeah uh you can find me on YouTube that's my main area of where I post stuff so I'm really just posting new games as they come and giving reviews and giving you all the information on them look at that YouTube face right there that's how that's good that was a real reaction that was not posted a little stinky face I like your thinky face that's good there's a lot of different ones you know um yeah I I reckon um do we see there some AR games in there I think they're coming it's inevitable we're getting there and you say 15 years and saw somebody mentioned like they think it's sooner and if you just look at where technology is Advanced we are living a you know age where technology is just shooting off and you know I don't think it's too far around the corner I think in this lifetime we're gonna get very close to that Ready Player One experience fingers crossed I said 15 years to make you guys uh it's my job to make you uh debate things with me thank you so much for all of your time I really appreciate it and everyone that's watching be sure to follow our guests and support them and just educate yourself more on what Innovative people and smart people are doing in this space we'll be back once more at the exact same time next week for louva talks where we're leading leading the conversation about the metaverse industry and I told you you would learn at least a couple things on this episode you did you know you did so come back next week and learn some more thank you so much for watching and we'll see you in the next episode of a louvatox I'll leave you guys with some original alluvium soundtrack music yet to be released adios [Music]

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